New version: multiplayer and chatting

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roguemoon
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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by roguemoon » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:57 pm

Lobo Laughing wrote:
Gargantor wrote:So, what do you prefer? The game's goal? Or popularity?
So I prefer the game's goal, because I think preserving the integrity of a safe, educational game is more valuable (both in currency and moral issues) than catering to the majority of the irresponsible MP population. If trouble-makers want to continue their (insert colorful and derogatory word here) let them do so unhindered by lexicon in their own private game. Get them out of the way so new users can focus on what's important–-namely learning and feeling comfortable in the MP community. If they grow confident and want to start roleplaying, then they have this community and private games. The phrase chat doesn't stop people from role-playing. It merely places a buffer between potentially unrealistic/nasty things and kids/first time players. In my view, if someone is mature enough to risk online role-playing then they are mature enough to message their friends and set up a private game together.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, I couldn't agree more.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by Koa » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:25 pm

Gargantor wrote:All I am saying is, that maybe roleplaying was not meant to be part of MP but there is no question about it that 80-60% of the population were roleplayers. Without them, WQ would have lost funding sooner because not many would have played it.

It is wise to make a decision according to what is good for the goal and what is good for the popularity. Sure, you can make a phrased chat restricted game about learning about wolves without giving people the chance to develop some kind of plot. But that will cost you roughly that 80-60% of players who come to roleplay. New players will come but how long can you play the same 'plot' over and over before you decide to play something else?

So, what do you prefer? The game's goal? Or popularity?

After all these years, WQ isnt really one of kind anymore, so one cannot keep relying on people being drawn in because 'you can play as a wolf'.

Sure, not all roleplays are about wolves but it can be easily solved by removing specific words. Surely, for a wolf roleplay you wont need the word 'vampire' or 'teen' or 'dragon' or 'whale'.

While I think popularity is important in some aspects, I think we should step away from the argument of "WolfQuest would have lost funding sooner if it was not popular" and tone down the emphasis on popularity. It may come into consideration if we (and back then) want(ed) to quantitatively "evaluate" success, e.g., if we ask the question, "How many people have downloaded the game?" and therefore might have had some influence in terms of grants/funding (though I would not be able to give you those details). I think one of WolfQuest's main driving forces in getting funding was its educational goal -- not whether or not it was a smashing success, which, frankly, when we contemplate video games and popularity today, and even if we contemplate games back then, WolfQuest's success is different, and its level of popularity is different, and both mean different things in the context of WolfQuest. I am not downplaying popularity, but I would think there's more to getting grants and funding than just the question of whether or not something is popular; it just does not make sense when placed in the vision of WolfQuest, and what that vision represents. With all of that being said, I think the funding and grants were contributed to and on that vision, and not necessarily, or solely upon, the surface meaning of popularity.

Some things about WolfQuest have changed. Take the addition of pricing, for example. This, however, is a necessary addition -- the reality is that WolfQuest would simply not be able to continue on without the said addition. At the same time, the vision of WolfQuest is still present. It may be a little less accessible now due to the pricing endeavors, but its most central goal, at the heart of it all, has not changed from the original goal -- to educate people about wolves. WolfQuest is not a MMO or any other variant and technically does not have to appeal to the aforementioned audience or its variants; multiplayer is simply a component of WolfQuest and an "addition" to the central content, which is the singleplayer experience. That aside, the team has worked very hard to improve multiplayer and make it a more cohesive experience, which is a nice gesture that everyone should be grateful for. They did not have to improve or add on to multiplayer or even include it in this version.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by SolitaryHowl » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:51 pm

I just want to pop on here and say I agree with absolutely everything Laughing Lobo and Koa have said. But I will add my 2 cents here:

As a former staff member, I was in the middle of the whole process, or WQ's growing pains as I like to call them. It was incredibly frustrating to watch people find new ways to go around the lexicon immediately after it was updated; we were fighting a losing battle.

That being said:

WolfQuest's fundamental goal has always been about education. And it has had resounding success in both players' minds and in studies. Originally the team wasn't even going to put in multiplayer, but then decided people might have fun playing with other people, so it was added.

As the game got popular, a few people started to roleplay naughty stuff in chat, so to make the game safe for kids (WQ's original audience, now I think its more like tweens/teens) they had to keep on eliminating words that people would say to get around the lexicon filter. And its been a vicious cycle ever since for YEARS - one that the WQ team was constantly losing since funds were limited (therefore the staffing and the available technology was severely limited as well).

Multiplayer in 2.7 will have in-game friend lists and messaging systems, so organizing a private game even when you're limited to phrased chat shouldn't be a problem.

Also, WolfQuest's staff (with the exception of the game's developers) is made up of volunteers, and they do have lives outside of WolfQuest that need their time as well. They can't be on WQ all day. Patrolling the game and making sure people are following the rules isn't actually a moderator expectation anymore as it was in the past.They are expected to keep the forums in check, and not the game. That is what the WolfQuest Report Team is, or at least was, for.

WolfQuest was also considered to be "done" when funding ran out after 2.5 and the announcement was made that no future versions of the game would be developed. We're actually quite lucky that we're getting 2.7 at all, and even moreso that it will not be limited to PC/Mac and we should be grateful for that instead of being upset over small things that actually aren't really issues at all.

/End of rant.

EDIT: Fixed some wording.
Last edited by SolitaryHowl on Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by roguemoon » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:55 pm

SolitaryHowl is definitely right. I don't think I really considered this either. We've got an excellent game that we should be grateful is still even up and running and playable, and is STILL being improved and added onto even after all it's been through and all the years it's been around.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by Koa » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:08 pm

I think opinions are valuable, but when they are stated appropriately; this is a rather weighty thread and still has value in the way of questions, so I'd rather not lock it. For future reference/general statement, let's try to keep all opinions relatively civil so people who need to ask questions about the in/outs of multiplayer in 2.7 can do so.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by Nor-easter Forecast » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:20 pm

SolitaryHowl wrote:Be grateful you are getting a WQ 2.7 at all. STOP complaining about the phrase chat (there will be in-game friend lists, in-game messaging systems, etc, so there should be no problem in organizing private games), STOP insulting the staff by saying they didn't do their jobs (which is volunteered work - people have lives outside of WolfQuest), just STOP.
Thank you Solitary, thank you. I believe you said what we all wanted to in regards to this conversation.

Koa is also 100% correct in regards to grants. Money is not based on popularity.

WQ is an amazing game with an amazing, hard working staff. We are all incredibly lucky to have 2.7. I do not intend to pick on any single user, but rather the whole argument. Take a step back and look. There is a forest through all those trees you've been complaining about. So please, take Soltairy's advice and be satisfied with what you already have.

That's my final opinion. Koa's right, let's get back to the business of things.
EDIT: consider this post amended. I did come off as a little rude there... apologies to those it was directed at.
Last edited by Nor-easter Forecast on Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by valkea » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:25 pm

Be grateful you are getting a WQ 2.7 at all. STOP complaining about the phrase chat (there will be in-game friend lists, in-game messaging systems, etc, so there should be no problem in organizing private games), STOP insulting the staff by saying they didn't do their jobs (which is volunteered work - people have lives outside of WolfQuest), just STOP.

Eduweb didn't have to go back to WolfQuest - it was considered completed, a success. But they did (and added a whole BUNCH of new features and surprises along the way), and here you all are (or at least some of you) complaining about the little things. I'd like to see YOU develop a video game from the ground up, and then deal with the ravenous and sometimes unreasonable demands of its fans. Its not easy.
I do not intend to pick on any single user, but rather the whole whiny argument.

take Soltairy's advice and STOP.
Please be respectful towards other users. Discussion is fine, however calling it "whiny" and somewhat aggressively telling people to stop is not fine. As Koa previously said, keep your opinions and thoughts civil so that the thread does not get out of hand and have to be locked. It is a fairly useful thread to have open, giving people a good place to ask questions about 2.7 multiplayer, so it would be a shame to lock it because of a discussion that got out of control.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by Lilly Shane » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:55 pm

The more I think about this, the more I realize the importance of keeping the game clean. Lobo Laughing has a very good point, parents don't want to pay for a game where their children are subjected to this kind of behavior, they want to protect their kids, and WQ wants parents to feel that their kids are safe, and who knows? Some of the "meat hunters" could be pedophiles in real life. Do we really want this risk? I'm now leaning more to the Phrase Chat for open games. It just makes sense.
Lobo Laughing wrote:And seriously, what's the big deal if you have to get a PM on the forum before you can enter a private game? It's not like its hard to get a forum account and it will likely draw new users. There's also an option to get an email whenever you receive a PM so you don't have to check regularly.
Now I can understand others' concern about being able to contact friends. All of the people I have met in-game have a forum account, however, most of them never, ever, check their PMs, and they do not use the forum at all. Thus, it makes it difficult to get in touch with them. Aside from having to email them from their profile. Which, I do not want to give out my darned email, I don't know you in real life, so why should you email me? Absolutely not. Unless it's a separate account specifically for this site, and does not contain personally-identifying information.
SolitaryHowl wrote:(there will be in-game friend lists, in-game messaging systems, etc, so there should be no problem in organizing private games)
Now this could be a very good solution. :mrgreen:
Snow130 wrote:Because players roleplayed the worst things imaginable like wolves mating. And that is bad.
I respect your opinion and what you're saying, however in my honest opinion, I don't believe that roleplaying wolves mating is the "worst thing imaginable." Not when you factor in what else they could be roleplaying, such as, animal cruelty. I.e. Skinning the animals for their fur to make coats, and clothing out of their hides, putting them in harsh environments to see how they survive, potentially killing them in the process, etc, etc. There are a few things I would consider to be worse than wolves mating, but I still agree that it doesn't belong in a open multiplayer server, if they want to roleplay that,(by "that" I mean mates, NOT animal cruelty.) then by all means do, but in their own private server as Lobo Laughing has mentioned. This is my opinion.
Lobo Laughing wrote:You're lucky if you can find a "wolf pack" game between all the high school, vampire, saving and graphic meat servers. Even if you do, chances are the role play will go something along the lines of walks down the hill and drinks from the creek ; smells the wind and howls ; hears wolf howl, then lays down. As if it can get any more boring, each of these sections is accompanied by five minutes of silence. The only lively RPs I've ever entered were unrealistic ones.
I can definitely relate and agree with this. When I open multiplayer in WQ, I expect to roleplay realistically as a wolf. Not as a dragon, or a wolf that can transform and has magical(bleh, that word...) powers, etc. And what the heck does a highschool roleplay have ANYTHING to do with wolves?! Nothing! Please go somewhere else with these kinds of roleplays.

Now I will also be completely honest here, when I roleplayed in multiplayer, yes, I did disobey the rules a bit. While I never roleplayed "mating" I would sometimes have a meat/mate. (But again, I never roleplayed actual mating or anything like that.) And I did use the alas/led terms, and found alternative words to others that were blocked. I admit to all of this, so I was by no means following the rules perfectly, and thus my opinions have much less of an impact on anything. And had I not mentioned this, it could come around to me as; "Oh you're one to speak!" or something similar. So I'm being honest right off the get-go.

With that having been said, if I wanted to roleplay and have a "meat," then I would invite people who I know are okay with roleplaying like that to a private server, though I doubt still that I would actually roleplay mating, just, no... But it makes more sense if you wanted to have more of a realistic roleplay with parent wolves, and pups. And in such a roleplay where you have parents and pups, it would also be beneficial to have more than five players, that way, you can have your parents, pups, and loner/other wolf packs. Talk about making it more realistic! The first roleplay I ever did in WQ was a blast, though that is another story completely. And it did contain a mother and father, however they weren't really referred to as "mates/meats," though it was logical to assume that they were, obviously. It also contained brothers and sisters as pups or older pups.

My point is, if you want to roleplay like that, then get a group of people you know in real life, or on WQ who you know are okay with that kind of roleplay, and set up a private server. This way the kids can be safe in their own open multiplayer servers, and for more advanced roleplayers and 'other' kinds of roleplays,(such as wolves with powers, transformation, etc, and 'other' things...) can have their own separate "playground" (Though for roleplays that have nothing to do with wolves, I would suggest to go to another game or roleplaying site.)

I apologize if anything I am suggesting with private games is still against the rules, these are just merely suggestions. I don't want to give any ideas for people to go out and disobey the rules in a private server. I don't want to get anyone into trouble. If anything I am saying is wrong or against the rules, please let me know, I don't want to find myself in trouble in the future by roleplaying in private servers either.

The above giant wall of text is just my opinions on some of these points. I now agree that lexicon should go and phrase chat should replace it in open games. Long story short, lol.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by Gargantor » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:44 am

Lobo Laughing wrote: First of all, WQ does not get funding through its players. Donations, when they existed, were few and far between. It's wonderful that WQ reaches so many people, but it is an extremely selective game and (my understanding is that) almost all funding is determined based on if it is educational or not.
But there is no more funding, so you can make changes as you like. The educational value doesnt need to be trashed while also you keep the freedom to roleplay a pack to utilize what they learned, but also giving them the chance to add plots which will make them come back for more and learn even more.
Lobo Laughing wrote:Secondly, WQ was not designed to be a game people played over and over again. It's educational, which means you learn it and you leave it. High player turnover. Besides, someone who buys 2.7 and plays the game once offers just as much support as if they'd played the game fifteen times.
People will not pay money to play with a game you can be done in 10 mins, only to play it once (WQ currently can be completed in about so much time). People will see through it eventually and will refuse to pay for something that's only aim is to grab their money and ignore them afterwards, especially if you are so loud about it like right now.
Lobo Laughing wrote:you're right, words like "vampire" and "dragon" are not necessary in a wolf game and they can be easily removed. How do you think we got to the current useless lexicon???
Because the developers removed stuff that was necessary for gameplay and chatting instead of finally realizing that maybe the game wasnt designed to be safe enough for children because there are no mods who patrol and shut down games instantly as soon as they found them.

I do not agree to take out necessary words, like pronouns or words that describe stuff you can say in connection to wolves (he, she, meat, etc). But seriously... Comparing the removal of basic words to something that has nothing to do with wolves and are connected to fantasy is like comparing wolves to a car in a forest. The first is a necessary part of its ecosystem, the other is cool to have but does not belong into the forest.

The difference can be made simply by utilizing staff better and monitoring the games, plus processing reports much faster, enabling GMs to patrol and have the authority to shut down games or issue punishments on the spot would do wonders. Knowing, that people with authority are around puts any unruly child in its place. Mostly. The rest is ban-worthy anyway. Now that the game does not run on funding, it is no longer limited in features. I have been part of the report team, actually. And not just once did I overhear people talking about the report team patrolling but they clearly showed no respect for them, neither did they feel threatened. If you had been identified as such (with the help of the forum) you were called out and dissed out on the spot. That wouldnt have happened to a mod. People of authority have more respect than simple users who do the job of mods. While in my career as a patrol team member, I have NOT noticed any kind of progress, other than the chat being more restricted. There were simply no people of authority around to keep these people on their toes. And they knew it.

Lobo Laughing wrote:So I prefer the game's goal, because I think preserving the integrity of a safe, educational game is more valuable (both in currency and moral issues) than catering to the majority of the irresponsible MP population. If trouble-makers want to continue their (insert colorful and derogatory word here) let them do so unhindered by lexicon in their own private game.
And you just hit my own pet peeve. So you are claiming, that all roleplayers are rule breakers, irresponsible and need to continue their filthy little entertainment in private games? Do you hate roleplaying so much? Initially, it didnt do anything harmful. Then trolls found out there are no people watching, and got out of hand. Any kind of action done by the staff was a late one, because these people were always a step ahead.

The majority of roleplayers were harmless people who tried to roleplay a pack, I myself having learned and taught a lot while within a roleplay where we explained stuff that wolves did to people and roleplayed it ourselves with a few additional plots such as migrating and following the herds from one spot of the map to another, while also giving detailed descriptions on how a pack hunts. Just an example. Then restrictions came in words and people turned towards other games that were about wolves but let them chat and rp on. This was when the population dropped, then fantasy-loving people came in and you got more people rping non-wolf stuff than a wolf pack. They were not bothered by the lack of words because they usually had no demand for quality.

Learn from the mistakes, please. It will make people come back for more and buy your next version or even tablet users would buy your additional texture to give their characters more quality and uniqueness if they can actually use them more than just once.

Again, everyone here thinks that one can only roleplay unrealistic fantasy stuff. The truth is, one can roleplay anything, including a fully functional realistic pack, who do a lot more than run around, hunting elk and feeding the pups. Just saying. I have learned a lot thanks to roleplays on WQ. More than SP could teach me, thanks to oldies and people who already knew a lot about these magnificent creatures. I was really grateful for that and I would hate this to be taken from people in the future.

Truth is, while the game probably will have some kind of invitation system for Private games, it will be hard to find people who want to play the same plot if there is no way to talk about it with everyone without you giving them an ingame chat-system they will use for chatting anyway to bypass your phrase chat system. But I guess I can understand why everyone here is so much against the lexicon. Because the people who liked the lexicon chat left a long time ago when it was too restricted for them to play properly. Thus, I will not press any further. This is a debate I can only lose with everyone being so much against the feature without even looking into it or realizing what the initial problem was with it in the first place. It makes no sense for me to post any further.

From here on, you say what you want. But do not forget, that there might be a chance, that one day I will return, just to say: 'I told you so'. I hope it wont come to it, though.

Have a nice day and good luck with the game.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by AmberZeWolf » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:09 am

In my opinion here, it's pity that we are here fighting and I want to calm it down.. It's not happening it seems. Guys. It's just a game. Parents don't pay for games with kids being rude in public as suggested. Why are we arguing about roleplay? I'm so confused why, because no one will stop arguing about lexion chat now I'd know... So it looks like everyone is debating about free chat in public. WQ said no. I agree because it's their decision. I know why. People abused it and won't stop.

I myself as a teen, while a kid roleplayed as well and some were unreleavent to the game. Then I stopped when II got on the website and saw this: I was to roleplay only as a wolf. No one seemed to listen except me, the one who opened disabled chat games. Why can't anyone listen? I don't get it at all.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by paperpaws » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:02 am

Gargantor wrote:The difference can be made simply by utilizing staff better and monitoring the games, plus processing reports much faster, enabling GMs to patrol and have the authority to shut down games or issue punishments on the spot would do wonders. Knowing, that people with authority are around puts any unruly child in its place. Mostly. The rest is ban-worthy anyway. Now that the game does not run on funding, it is no longer limited in features.
Keep in mind that the WolfQuest team is small. Funding isn't the only thing with the potential of limiting WolfQuest in its features; you also have to consider the game engine, the amount of time the devs can afford to spend on the game, and perhaps most relevantly the cost that would go into implementing these features. If anything, the lack of funding limits WQ even more. I definitely see where you are coming from, but admittedly question the realism of your expectations in context with the size of the company WolfQuest is developed by.

I personally think that allowing unrestricted chatting in Private Games and just canning public game chats is the perfect compromise, with added bonus that the Community forums might get increased traffic from people looking to join packs and the like. It's a shame it had to come to this, but the Team tried their best with the resources they had, and in my personal opinion, it's baffling that people would still go out of their way to find loopholes in WolfQuest's frustratingly limited lexicon rather than just... giving up and go and disappoint their parents someplace else.

I guess all we can do for now is wait and see how the features will be enjoyed, but I personally believe the Team did the right thing. Pleasing everyone is and will remain impossible, so let's hope the majority of the Community too will appreciate the final chat system. Everything else has pretty much already been said, so I'll leave it at that.
Snow130 wrote:I myself as a teen, while a kid roleplayed as well and some were unreleavent to the game. Then I stopped when II got on the website and saw this: I was to roleplay only as a wolf. No one seemed to listen except me, the one who opened disabled chat games. Why can't anyone listen? I don't get it at all.
Heh, at least there's no harm in just irrelevant but appropriate roleplay. Glad to hear you put in the effort, though!

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by roguemoon » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:22 am


A quick question, when 2.7 is released will multiplayer just stop working for those who haven't purchased the new version and are still using 2.5? I feel like there should be some sort of notification telling people what's up, especially since lots of users on multiplayer don't use the forums. I've encounters lots of players who aren't even aware of 2.7 yet (I've been making a point of mentioning it and directing people to the forums for more info if they aren't aware, gotta advertise where you can!), I feel like there needs to be some way of announcing it to those who don't use the forums, although I'm assuming the team has considered this already :)

Sorry if this has been answered also, I haven't found an answer yet so I'm assuming it hasn't.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by Koa » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:53 am

roguemoon wrote:
A quick question, when 2.7 is released will multiplayer just stop working for those who haven't purchased the new version and are still using 2.5? I feel like there should be some sort of notification telling people what's up, especially since lots of users on multiplayer don't use the forums. I've encounters lots of players who aren't even aware of 2.7 yet (I've been making a point of mentioning it and directing people to the forums for more info if they aren't aware, gotta advertise where you can!), I feel like there needs to be some way of announcing it to those who don't use the forums, although I'm assuming the team has considered this already :)

Sorry if this has been answered also, I haven't found an answer yet so I'm assuming it hasn't.
Multiplayer modes will eventually be disabled on older versions of the game. See:
http://www.wolfquest.org/bb/viewtopic.p ... 5#p2360881

Regarding notifying users about 2.7:
http://www.wolfquest.org/bb/viewtopic.p ... 5#p2404322

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by Captain Russia » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:26 pm

I think text chat should be an option when creating a public server, too, but maybe if an account has been flagged for inappropriate behaviour they simply lose chat privileges in text chat? It would be less secure than lexicon or phrase chat, sure, but from what I've seen (having played WolfQuest for quite a while, including Multiplayer) I don't think inappropriate chatting is a very prevalent issue within the game's player base, and regular text chat should be available for those wishing to use it. At the very least, I think regular text chat should be available for private games.

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Re: New version: multiplayer and chatting

Post by Frodo1 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:12 am

Captain Russia wrote:I think text chat should be an option when creating a public server, too, but maybe if an account has been flagged for inappropriate behaviour they simply lose chat privileges in text chat? It would be less secure than lexicon or phrase chat, sure, but from what I've seen (having played WolfQuest for quite a while, including Multiplayer) I don't think inappropriate chatting is a very prevalent issue within the game's player base, and regular text chat should be available for those wishing to use it. At the very least, I think regular text chat should be available for private games.
Unfortunately I can't totally agree- I've also played MP for quite some time, and there is a persistent problem with mate-related rps. Certainly not everyone participates in them, but it is a prevalent problem.
I will say I'd be very upset if regular chat was removed completely, but the way it's managed in 2.5 has several major flaws.

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