Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Discuss wolf conservation and status.

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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by failwolf56 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:50 pm

Lol, just read through quite a lot there^^ Interesting, although I don't agree 100% with all that. Of course, it's really impossible to predict what would happen, since we don't know if some mutation might help the wolves survive. Although, I get where you are coming from, and it is a good point.
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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by Tarbtano » Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:36 am

failwolf56 wrote:Lol, just read through quite a lot there^^ Interesting, although I don't agree 100% with all that. Of course, it's really impossible to predict what would happen, since we don't know if some mutation might help the wolves survive. Although, I get where you are coming from, and it is a good point.
Very true. Remember I was only giving one specific scenario and I didn't have time to go into much detail :)
The reason however wolves got the short end in that scenario was the key fact that, once a carnivorous species goes from small to large; it is VERY hard to shrink back down to a size they'd acquire the behaviors to survive in. This is the reason many carnivores of the past, from Creodonts to Smilodon to the Dire Coyote; went extinct. Also by shrinking, the wolves essentially would have to act like coyotes and foxes; but lack the behaviors to do either as effectively as a coyote or fox. The main reason wolves dominate coyotes today is simply size. Coyotes have a more reliable breeding and pup rearing system, are more intelligent; and above all else, more adaptable. Remove, or even just diminish the size advantage; and the wolves lose their edge.

This is the exact reason the Red Wolf is not doing well, because essentially; the new Eastern Coyotes are better Red Wolves then the Red Wolves. Increase those Coyotes size to within 45lbs of a wolf's, and the entire pecking order changed. Its almost exactly as what happened in some parts of ancient East Asia, were Dholes grew in size and basically kicked wolves out of large chunks of habitat

so I did base this on some fact.
Last edited by Tarbtano on Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by oxoDestinyoxo » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:28 am

Adding another point on to that, the reason wolves would not grow in size along with the other predators, is because already dominate predators would hinder such an ability. Mutation could shift to the wolves favor, but not without changing the species so greatly, they may shift back into Dire Wolves; thus, the "extinction" of the Grey Wolf we know today.

Now, to answer the question. The removal of the Grey Wolf certainly provides some good news. Why? Simple, the species is now capable of supporting itself, even with human interference. Some may not think the same, but Grey wolves have proven time and time again that our population control efforts have only a small effect in general. Wolves are a creature that spreads far too quickly for us to keep up with, and when they were protected, we could only watch as they spread all over. I say we waited too long to remove them. The wolf population is booming to insane numbers, and is now posing a threat, not only to livestock, but to humans and elk herds as well. These "new" wolves, as I call them, are hurting elk populations in their areas, because of the amount of hunting they do. This was never a problem before, when we had the smaller, weaker, more coyote like wolves. The wolves that inhabited the US previously were way smaller than the Arctic Wolf today, and now Arctics are among the smallest of wolves.
Not to mention, when wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone, the agreed numbers with lower than 600 animals, but control efforts were never put into place, and it all went downhill from there. Wolf populations would go up, and elk populations would go down. While wolves never outnumbered the game, they did rise when the elk fell, and fell when the elk rose. Whether or not humans had anything to do with it is anyone's guess, but wolves can and will contribute.
But, look at it this way, Yellowstone is not even a natural wolf habitat. So why put them there? All "exploding" wolf populations took place in Idaho. Now we see why they have a wolf problem, do we not? Wolves flourish in those areas, and only evade our attempts. Take a look at this graph : http://forwolves.org/ralph/wpages/graph ... able05.gif Notice that the wolf populations of the GYA (Greater Yellowstone Area) and Montana (NWMT) have stopped growing, and the numbers now bounce up and down each year. Essentially all of the growth comes from Idaho (CID) The graph is from a couple years ago, perhaps before they allowed hunting. While it may not still stand entirely true today, wolves have not escaped discussion just yet.
Taking a look at this graph : http://forwolves.org/ralph/wpages/graph ... ec2005.gif We can easily see that wolves know how to sustain themselves in Idaho. Once again, the graph is old, but who is there to say some of it may still be true?
And look just how long it took us to recover wolves. It's coming back to bite us isn't it?
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2011/01/ ... stone-elk/ This article is from the beginning of 2011, but it shows that elk are indeed hurting. Wolves didn't have to do with it all, but as you can see, they did indeed contribute, and that was the problem at hand. Paired with livestock hunting and aggressive encounters with humans, wolves did need to be removed.

Sorry it is a lot to read, but I had to get it off my chest.

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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by BlackWarrior » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:40 am

O.o
Wow, many large posts for me to keep up with but, ok!
You all have very valid points. Especially the fact that so much evidence supported it. I think many of us are leaning towards the fact that wolves really did need to come off the list.
shown in previous posts, if wolves were kept on, it may only cause further problems in the ecosystem. Correct me if im wrong.
As said earlier, there are the pros and cons. I think at the moment, the pros of wolves coming off the endangered list is weighing out the cons. This may be a good thing.
The wolves are off the list and it has been done. We just have to hope that it was for the best of the wolves as well as community.
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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by Ameerie » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:39 am

Well i learned this on science so.. what i got thought was that if the wolves and the deer remained UN-hunted and let nature takes its place it would just like be back when we were not on earth.. We don't need hunters to control the population cause hunters were not here when wolves were and they did just fine without them
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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by oxoDestinyoxo » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:56 am

It's not a matter of how well wolves are doing, it's a matter of human safety and balance of the ecosystem of the areas wolves inhabit. With the coming of Canadian Wolves to replace the Mid-West Wolves, horrible imbalance does occur. Elk herds struggle, and if hunters don't step in, they won't be the only things hurt. Livestock is hunted by wolves, which hurts the meat market, and even humans are attacked and killed by wolves. It's too big of a risk to take. Without population control, lives would be in danger and the economy... in even worse danger.

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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by SolitaryHowl » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:42 am

I think all animal species need to be culled if their population gets too high. True, nature does take care of its own...but it takes a LONG time for the ecosystem to balance itself out and 'fix' itself when a specific population gets too high.
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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by La Striata » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:35 am

Ameerie wrote: what i got thought was that if the wolves and the deer remained UN-hunted and let nature takes its place it would just like be back when we were not on earth.
In that case, extinction and destruction would continue as normal. Of all the species which have existed throughout Earth's history, 99.8% are extinct. Nature has destroyed more species than man can ever dream of.
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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by Elite Zealot » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:52 pm

I think taking wolves off of the endangered species list is definitely a good thing for many reasons.

First off, like many other people have stated, it means the populations are stabilizing. With a stable population it would take quite some time to bring their numbers back down to dwindling above the line of extinction, therefore marking the hunting arguments as invalid. In fact, even when wolves were on the endangered species list it was completely legal to hunt wolves in some areas of the world because they were over populating. It is needed to maintain the balance of life I say that it is perfectly fine. Poaching, on the other hand, is not - but I won't get into that right now.

Now, this whole argument about "let nature take it's course and humans need to stay out of it" is 100% invalid. As humans, we are a part of nature, which leads into a few points I would like to bring up. Humans have been around a long time, we just had used different tools than we do now and we didn't appear as we do now. Our brains, being less developed matched the time period. Also, just to state a fact, if we were to follow nature's law, "Survival of the fittest," humans would have wiped out all other species long ago since our minds are so advanced compared to those of other species.

Anyways, back to the wolves being off the endangered species list, it is something to be happy about, not something to be worried about.

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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by failwolf56 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:00 pm

Tarbtano wrote: Very true. Remember I was only giving one specific scenario and I didn't have time to go into much detail :)
The reason however wolves got the short end in that scenario was the key fact that, once a carnivorous species goes from small to large; it is VERY hard to shrink back down to a size they'd acquire the behaviors to survive in. This is the reason many carnivores of the past, from Creodonts to Smilodon to the Dire Coyote; went extinct. Also by shrinking, the wolves essentially would have to act like coyotes and foxes; but lack the behaviors to do either as effectively as a coyote or fox. The main reason wolves dominate coyotes today is simply size. Coyotes have a more reliable breeding and pup rearing system, are more intelligent; and above all else, more adaptable. Remove, or even just diminish the size advantage; and the wolves lose their edge.

This is the exact reason the Red Wolf is not doing well, because essentially; the new Eastern Coyotes are better Red Wolves then the Red Wolves. Increase those Coyotes size to within 45lbs of a wolf's, and the entire pecking order changed. Its almost exactly as what happened in some parts of ancient East Asia, were Dholes grew in size and basically kicked out of wolves out of large chunks of habitat

so I did base this on some fact.
Mhh, I just wanted to say that I'm really glad that I understand your point. And based off of what you said, maybe we should stop "helping" the wolves so much. Seeing as coyotes are not only more adaptable, but also more intelligent than their wolf couterparts, we ought to let nature run its course. Could it be possible, and this is simply just a speculation, that we (as humans) favor wolves more than coyotes. I feel like many children fantasise more on the mystic and wildness of a wolf pack, rather than that of a "mangy" coyote. Even though there are many other reasons for keeping wolves around, I do believe that humans "like" wolves more than a lot of other animals. Furthermore, I feel this is caused because wolves' lifestyles are very similar to that of humans. Both live in families, working together to survive. Of course there are some differences, but does anyone else get the feeling that humans always take a liking to wolves. I mean, look at how many people on the "Introduce Yourself" topic state that they love researching wolves. I've been on many other game sites, and not nearly as many people study the animal it's based off of. My opinion? I think that we, as humans, need to stop favoring wolves over other candids and let nature run its course. Even though this probably will never happen, and there's always going to be people who oppose this idea, I still like to get my thoughts out. Lol, although I'm fairly ignorant about wolves, at least compared to others (Tarbtano xD). I would absolutely love for someone else to give their thought on this, since it never hurts to see someone else's view point.
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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by shadowwolf966 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:40 am

I agree with most people when they say nature needs to run it's course. Although, if humans are the ones causing a major decrease in the number of wolves (and other canids) than I think that humans also need to play a part in the repopulation. Considering that humans are a part of nature - as Elite Zealot said - than I think that we have a certain responsibility when it comes to the enviornment. We shouldn't meddle with everything, but instead try to fix the things that we have destroyed to an extent. That doesn't mean that we should just sit by and do whatever we want, but try not to control nature either. After all, we are just a part of the bigger picture.
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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by Koa » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:25 am

Just realized this should be in Wolf Conservation, as it discuss status. /n00b
-moved to Wolf Conservation-
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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by lucarioheart200 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:05 pm

failwolf56 wrote:Lol, just read through quite a lot there^^ Interesting, although I don't agree 100% with all that. Of course, it's really impossible to predict what would happen, since we don't know if some mutation might help the wolves survive. Although, I get where you are coming from, and it is a good point.

I agree with Gavin.
If you're the wolf, its great news.
If you're the caribou, on the other hand, not so great news ^^"
Since wolf populations are back up, the more wolves, the less caribou.
It might mess up the food chain brining back more wolves.

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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by Floofysaur » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:53 am

I would agree, but then again, how do you know the rate of wolves in the wild? I mean hunters do it for one reason, to increase the population of moose, caribou, or another type of hunting game, since feeding time for wolves is sometimes scarce, hunters won't let down.
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Re: Wolves off the Endangered List - Good News OR Bad?

Post by Koa » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:47 pm

SpecialK42293 wrote:I would agree, but then again, how do you know the rate of wolves in the wild? I mean hunters do it for one reason, to increase the population of moose, caribou, or another type of hunting game, since feeding time for wolves is sometimes scarce, hunters won't let down.
They also hunt to regulate wolves - generally speaking, most wolf hunting is reasonable and follows regulations. While feeding may be scarce for some wolves at times, if an area is concentrated with wolves, the prey population may reach a drastic decline in that area.
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